Great Auditorium. Ocean Grove, NJ. Undated. By Paul Goldfinger © Blogfinger.net Click to enlarge.
The actual posts about the OGU letter to the CMA and the decision to drop out of the Sunday dedication ceremony are clear and specific in their content.
But the comments that have resulted are all over the place. As a result, for me as editor, it’s like herding cats. We have tried to stay focused, but it’s been difficult.
The fundamental flaw in all this talk is that a transcript or recording (audio or video) of Rabbi Jonathan Cahn’s sermon has not been made available so that we could find out for ourselves exactly what the Rabbi said, and we could judge for ourselves. ( addendum: Today we did find out where to locate an audio file of the sermon.* )
Too many commenters speak as if they were there, when actually they seem to be reacting to hear-say. Even the original OGU letter says, “Many people in town have brought it to our attention that today’s sermon in the Great Auditorium was filled with hateful commentary about marriage equality.”
Regarding the speaker’s views on homosexuality, we don’t even know if he was criticizing gay marriage only or if there were other related concerns. Without the actual content, how could anyone definitively decide that the speaker was “bigoted” and/or “hateful” unless they were actually there or had a transcript? But most of us were not there.
That is why some commenters are focusing on other aspects such as the speaker’s reputation, the process whereby speakers are chosen, attacks on the CMA, and even whether or not he is a real rabbi. They feel pressure to say something without actually knowing what the sermon contained.
Some commenters seem to be working from a list of talking points—resorting to name-calling (ie “bigot, bigoted speech, spewing hate, hateful,” are showing up repeatedly) Since we do not allow such language, we have had to reject those references. But even those who try to stick to the issues are handicapped by not having the exact sermon to read, view, or hear.
ADDENDUM: LISTEN TO THE ENTIRE SERMON WHICH IS NOW AVAILABLE:
* Try this link from the CMA:
I was able to listen to the entire 50 minute sermon by using the Firefox Browser. It the link doesn’t work on your computer, try it on your pad or iPhone.
For those of you who think you know what he said, but didn’t actually hear what he said, especially those who went on the record in Blogfinger, you should listen to him with an open mind and then ask yourself if this pastor is “spewing hate” and/or is “bigoted.” Or is your anger directed at him because he disagrees regarding the recent Supreme Court ruling on gay marriage? As a Christian pastor, should he be condemned for quoting the Bible? Let us know what you think after listening to the sermon. The parts about gay marriage kick in late in the presentation.
–Paul Goldfinger, Editor @Blogfinger
Sue, this is true, and this is why i am not a Orthodox Jew. I know that there are Rabbi who would call my life one of sin, working on Saturdays, eating unclean animals, etc.
This is why i dont go to Orthodox Jewish services nor adhere to that particular sect of religion. Everyone is free to speak, no one is forced to listen.
Paul: You did a damn good job with your coverage of the controversy at the auditorium.
—
To the commenter who said that the Bible says homosexuality is a sin, Levitucus (where this comes from) also notes 70+ other sins.
I look forward to hearing Tony Campolo on the 16th, as well as Bishop Schol on the 23rd.
I was there and among those who stood and applauded Rabbi Cahn’s message. His message was a God send. His plea was that of one crying in the American wilderness. His message was not one of hatred and condemnation. it was plea of a heart that weeps for America.
The response from OGU was not surprising, but it was disappointing. Considering their motto is “inclusiveness and diversity,” they showed they have neither. There is no inclusion of anyone who has a diverse opinion from their party line, and that was evident in their narrow definition of “hate speech.”
I Was and Irony: I’ve been tempted to comment on this subject once the dust settled, but you two have said it better than I ever could have.
And OGU: The GA is a CHURCH on Sundays 10:30 to 12 or so. And if you don’t like what they say there (as even I sometimes don’t,) why not stay home or worship elsewhere.
I was at the cupola event. Absolutely lovely, as captured on the Blogfinger photos. You boycotted it, you say. If you really were there, no one noticed. If you were not there, no one missed you. You exaggerate your own importance. Over and over again…………
It is ironic that those who sought “tolerance” for years, having just been handed a big victory at the Supreme Court, would now display intolerance here in Ocean Grove.
Ocean Grove United now reveals itself as having been play-acting a role of togetherness while waiting for any provocation to go on the attack again. No one is fooled now by their pretense of tolerance.
I’m sure many have noticed the OGU misuse of language. Some would call it “politically correct speech.” They never refer to their homosexuality. Their name gives no indication of their main priority. They don’t refer to gay marriage; instead they call it “marriage equality.” Then there is their misuse of the words “hatred” and “bigoted.”
And finally, at their web site they say that they promote their mission as being about “striving to end discrimination and realize a nation that achieves fundamental fairness and equality for all.”
I think their credibility is shot in this town.
I was at the OG Auditorium during this sermon. It was basically a call to America to “wise up” and be ready. It was informative and emotional, with an awesome ending where Rabbi Jonathan Cahn got fired up, and the congregation felt connected, resulting in the “standing O.”
As far as the flack about the “same sex marriage” and “rainbow flag,” it looked like people were offended and started walking out. My question is, do these people know where they are? They are in a place where the teachings of Jesus Christ are belted out from a podium and where the Bible is not taken lightly. This is a place where we love our neighbor, and tolerance is preferred over hatred.
The Bible states that homosexuality is a sin, and Jonathan isn’t going to tip-toe around the subject. The fact that the gay community is centralized around the Asbury Park and Ocean Grove OG area is the only reason why this is a big deal. The gay community and supporters heard it or heard about it, and they didn’t like it.
But since they are getting in such a big huff about it, the same “together / tolerant” campaign that the gay community had been preaching themselves, crumbled. Tolerance goes both ways.
By making a big stink, they themselves aren’t tolerant. If you don’t want to hear that what you may be doing is a sin according to the Bible, then don’t go to church!
If you offended by cowboy hats and boots, don’t go to a Garth Brooks concert!
You of course are welcome to attend church, but being offended by a sermon that you chose to attend makes it seem like you were just there to complain afterwards.
I just hope people realize the overall message that Rabbi Cahn was preaching was one of “coming together” as Americans. We are under attack in many ways… from the inside and out.
I listened to the sermon. This man is a typical fundamentalist fire and brimstone preacher whose message is not one of hate or bigotry. His message is that those who don’t follow God’s teachings will suffer the consequences, and he goes back to the Old and New Testaments to make that point. His sermon was long and emotional, as such sermons tend to be.
I didn’t agree with the insertion of 9-11 or even the depression of 2008 into the conversation. 9-11 and Wall Street aren’t in the Bible, and we know who is responsible for those events.
But one can listen to Rabbi Cahn and selectively choose to agree or not with his ideas. He should be able to speak in this town as should anyone with a controversial opinion, or specifically with opinions that OGU doesn’t like.
He is opposed to gay marriage because he sees it as a terrible violation of God’s law. He did not attack gays directly, but he does have a dim view of the Supreme Court for their decision. He also spoke against abortion and pornography as other examples of sins that could bring down a society or country. He received applause, laughter and cheers.
OGU made a mistake, in my opinion, by going after this man and by refusing to attend the dedication of the cupola. The CMA invited him to speak, and it is none of OGU’s business.
Now OGU has gone public to shamelessly promote a particular speaker later this month who evidently favors “acceptance of Christian gay couples into the church.”
OGU should give up the game of butting into the religious guest list at the Great Auditorium by taking sides among the messages heard there and by trying to pressure the CMA to make choices based on a pro-gay litmus test.
I get the impression that many Grover Christians welcome all messages at those Sunday sermons, and it does ‘t mean that they are so brainwashed as to accept everything that is said to them.
Ocean Grove will not suffer from having listened to Cahn’s message, but it will suffer because of the OGU divisiveness .
Ah….thanks. when I clicked on the link I had I got a message saying it wasn’t there. I listed to the audio
of his message that 2 as provided in another article on this subject.
Nothing wrong with it. He only shared what scripture said concerning what some are “objecting” to. I’d say their problem is with God…not Jonathan Cahn. From the sound of the response of the audience and what seems to be a standing ovation at the end, I’d say he was more than warmly received by those in the congregation. The time for fence sitting is over. People must choose who they will follow. God or Baal.
Thanks for the link.
JA
When I first tried the link it kept stopping, but then I downloaded the whole file to iTunes, and after that i had no trouble with it. I have to say I did find the sermon “hateful”.
The Rabbi went well beyond simply saying that he opposed the concept of same sex marriage. To give a personal analogy, people often criticize my own Catholic faith. When they do so from a position of respectful disagreement I have no problem with that. But when a minister says, as some do, that the Church of Rome is the Whore of Babylon and the pope is the Anti-Christ, I consider that hateful. I felt that the tone of the sermon fell into the latter category, and under those circumstances, I fully understand OGU’s reaction and feel that their response was justified..
Did you think what he said was bigoted or hateful?
The CD’s were available last Monday at the Hub for $8.00
Thanks for the functional link above, Paul. I was not able to get the player at OGCMA.org to work at all on my iPhone 5S last weekend and today it starts but then starts over again after a minute or so! It won’t play much further if I tap “download” either. It did play on my MacBook Pro using Firefox, my favorite browser.
But my connection in the Grove is a bit iffy and it did a lot of buffering and would not fast forward. I listened to the mp3 that I could only download using Safari. So the advice to try an alternate browser is good.
The sermon is almost an hour long and the part about marriage seems to be about 1/2 hour in. It is also quite complicated and I will have to listen again in order to be able to make an intelligent comment. Many of us Christians who regularly attend services because we feel spriitually connected to God and each other through the music and prayers do not agree with most of the preachers, and Rabbi Cahn especially.
I received an email “invitation” from OGU today to attend the services on August 16 to hear Rev. Dr. Tony Campolo give the sermons. I have every hope that he will present the views of progressive Christians, as he has in past visits.
Hi Paul,
I am able to play that link. Around the 13 minute mark he starts talking about how the Supreme Court opens with prayer and then strikes down the very word of God (or something). I’m not able to rewind or fast forward so I’m paraphrasing.
At about 34:30 he starts by explaining that it’s not about one particular group but all who have sinned, “if a nation has enshrined any sin it is at war with God.”
36:10- “One month ago today, America crossed a line as the highest court in the land overruled the word of God and struck down the biblical created order that God had ordained concerning marriage. If anything could constitute that of which Washington warned ‘a nation disregarding the eternal rules and order of God’ it has to be this. What happened one month ago was seismic, was a tectonic event, a culture changing event. A paradigm shift bearing profound ramifications not only about marriage but America’s future, culture, society, religious freedom”
36:55-“It’s like altering the atom and not expecting massive repercussions. It represented America’s decisive rejection of a Judeao-Christian foundation and the word of God upon which it was built”
At that point I lost my place and could not continue to listen through the whole 35 plus minutes that I’d already gone through.
Carol: Make sure you let it play for awhile before being assured that it works. Please let me know if you can hear the entire sermon. thanks
Paul, The link works for me also, but you can also right click on the file and choose “save target as” and you should be able to save the mp3 locally and then launch whatever your media player is. i would email it to you but it exceeds the size limit.
The link is working for me today on my iPhone5 with Safari. 8/4/15
unfortunately the sermon doesn’t actually download (i.e., not my understanding of what the word means: the full file coming in as such, for adding to an iPod playlist), but it does start playing and gives every sign of continuing. The website says that you can fastforward using Firefox, but that too didn’t seem to be borne out.
Thanks John. Maybe I should have tried another browser. For those of you who are able to hear the sermon, let us know what you think having that resource available.—Paul
that link did work in my Safari browser on an iMac (at our apartment in Manhattan). I’ll try it again from our home in OG tomorrow or Thursday.