The Great Auditorium interior during the Choir Festival. Photos by Paul Goldfinger
— UPDATED STORY: Includes interview with ACLU attorneys —
By Charles Layton
The American Civil Liberties Union is threatening legal action unless the Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association removes religious symbols from the Great Auditorium prior to Neptune High School’s graduation ceremonies there.
The dispute is over the constitutional issue of separation of church and state.
Graduation is scheduled for June 17.
The Neptune Board of Education has been negotiating with ACLU attorneys and their client for some time and has made several concessions in hopes of avoiding legal action. According to Superintendent David Mooij, the board has agreed to remove all religious content from the graduation program. However, Mooij said, the two sides remain stuck over the ACLU’s claim that “religious objects” should also be covered from view. The objects at issue are the large white cross on the front of the building, the two lighted religious signs inside on either side of the stage (shown in photo above) and a religious symbol at one of the doorways.
Mooij said the Camp Meeting Association, which owns the auditorium, has offered to make some concessions but says it “can’t take down or cover those signs, and I agree with them.”
The two ALCU attorneys said they thought it would be a simple and inexpensive matter for the Camp Meeting to cover up the four signs for the night of the graduation only. “We don’t think that’s too much to ask,” said Jeffrey Pollock, a Princeton attorney who is handling the case along with his wife, Seval Yildirim, a law professor at Whittier Law School in California.
Neptune High School has been holding graduation ceremonies in the Great Auditorium for six or seven decades. Shortly after last year’s graduation the grandmother of a graduate sent a letter to the school board objecting to the ceremony’s religious content and to its location in a place of worship. She also voiced her complaint at the board’s September work session.
The board took the complaint seriously and, following lengthy discussions, decided to do away with all religious content in the graduation program, including the traditional student invocation and the playing of “Onward Christian Soldiers.”
“We thought things would be OK going forward,” Mooij said. “Some time elapsed before we heard back from this individual by way of the ACLU. The ACLU acknowledged our programmatic changes but said there were still problems with the venue.”
Pollock and Yildirim told me that if the school board and the Camp Meeting do not agree to cover up the religious symbols, they would probably recommend to their client that she file suit, either in state or federal court. The New Jersey courts might be the more likely choice. “The New Jersey constitution has more specific limitations upon the actions of a public entity like a public school,” Pollock said. However, he said, both the state and federal constitutions have a strong preference “that a public school find a place that is nonreligious, so that if you’re not of that religion you don’t feel excluded.”
Mooij said holding the graduation in the auditorium was important to the school because it “has historic significance and status” and also because of the large number of people it can accommodate. “We print 3,000 tickets every year,” he said, “so families can bring not only moms and dads and siblings but grandparents and aunts and uncles. To get 3,000 seats anywhere else, this community would have to travel a considerable distance.”
He said it was unclear how long the school has been holding its graduations there, but “our high school secretary’s father is 91, and he graduated there. And he said his was not the first class to do so.”
The grandmother who initiated the challenge has no relatives graduating from Neptune High this year, her two attorneys said, but she does have relatives scheduled to graduate next year.
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Proof positive that both the flag and cross are inter-changeable depending on the occasion being celebrated in the Auditorium.
I’m a graduate of Neptune High School, Class of 1971. Like Stephen above, not only did my graduation occur in the Auditorium, I too was the class organist. My entire graduation was recorded for posterity, (it’s now 40 years later) and I concur, graduation for me and the rest of my class of 550 was complete when I lit the flag at the conclusion of the Star Spangled Banner!
At 17 years old, I believe all of us were more excited being in such a rich, historical venue for one of the biggest days of our lives. The crosses and religious signs were just “there”. They didn’t infringe on any of us and no one was permanently brain damaged from being in close proximity to them.
It is truly shameful what is happening: that one person should be able to complain and ruin it for all the others.
If grandma and her relatives are so offended by the religious contents and objects have them cover their ears and eyes
If looking at a cross upsets you, don’t look at it.
I’m pretty sure our Founding Fathers were not trying to protect children from the horrors of a public event in a venue that was not a part of their faith. In fact, faith, and the Bible, were very much a part of the original public school system. In fact, reading was taught, in part, in insure that children would be able to read Scripture.
So, to all those who are opposed … alternate sites with the same seating capacity and beauty?
JSL,
I am sorry if my point was unclear. The issue is not acceptance and coexistence of religions and tradition or whether one person’s discomfort should be dismissed for the comfort of others.
The auditorium may indeed be a wonderful place to hold graduation exercises but there can be no doubt that it conveys a religious significance and belief system. It was never right or appropriate for the school board to use the OG Auditorium.
This is not a OGCMA problem nor should the OGCMA bow to any pressure to alter the appearance of the Auditorium. It is a great, historic and beautiful edifice and home to a significant, religious mission.
Our country is founded on the premise that functions of government such as public schools must be secular, open to all and not show preference for any religion. While this may have been a tradition, it was simply wrong to hold public school graduations in that Auditorium.
It was not so long ago that it was against tradition for black children to attend white schools or women to attend universities like Harvard or Yale or hold public office. So please, no more about tradition. At one time these traditions were also considered harmless.
If we truly believe that one of the strengths of our system of government is the protection of individual rights against what James Madison referred to as “the tyranny of the majority,” then, while we may not always like the result, we must respect the right of this brave and courageous grandmother for demanding the township and school board abide by the protections and promises made to each and every citizen.
None of us know how many other people agree with her but were too afraid or felt too unempowered to say anything. Sometimes tyranny comes in the form of tradition.
Respectfully,
Jane in Randolph, Thanks for stating the obvious. Sure they can move it to the high school, and then the families can start smoothing hurt feelings when they have to choose who can go and who can’t. The Auditorium is practical.
Charles, one thing the Wikipedia piece left out was *why* T.J. wrote the letter. He was assuring the Church elders that the government wouldn’t get involved in their business. (They were concerned that the government would institute a federal religion.) So it wasn’t to keep Church out of the public sector … it was to keep the public sector out of the Church.
Such nonsense. Sorry someone might be offended. The whole political correctness thing offends me. Too bad the Constitution doesn’t protect me against being offended.
Carol,
I’m Catholic… I went to parochial schools and we had lots of Jews and Greeks who attended in order to get the very best education.
When we had religion classes, they used it as a study hall; they had all their religious holidays off; and we all respected that. They really enjoyed getting all of our holidays off; when we went to mass, they studied.
When the best venue in town is this auditorium, and it has been the venue for more than 70 years, and when one grandmother finds it upsetting — let her stay home.
I’ve been to temples for services, other churches for services and I’ve find none of their sermons, songs or decorations to be upsetting or alarming to me.
I think people can imagine that big electric flag, however, I will try to find that image. PG
Why doesn’t this site post a picture of the interior of the Great Auditorium when it is in use for a secular event, with the American flag lit up, so that people can see the venue as it actually looks during a graduation, and avoid confusing the issue further?
Mr. Green is correct about the flag.
The picture of the Auditorium with the cross is how it is set up for religious events. For secular events the flag is front and center. I am supportive of events that help bring all parts of Neptune together. Hopefully this tradition will go on for years to come.
I am late to this discussion but would like to offer my observation.
Born a Jew and educated in Quebec, I went to the public schools which were Protestant or Catholic. Even though 90% of my classmates were Jewish, we observed Christian holidays and sang hymns such as Onward Christian Soldiers and All Things Bright and Beautiful. My parents were appalled but there was nothing they could do because, you see, in Quebec and in Canada, the rights of the majority are superior to the rights of any minority or the rights of any one individual.
Throughout my history and political science studies, I came to understand how wonderfully different the US was and appreciated its constitution for the unparalleled protections afforded to the individual over the tyranny of the majority. We are indeed lucky and this is exactly what I celebrate in my American citizenship.
The ACLU is simply trying to remind NBE that a secular school must be mindful of the rights of each and every student. They are not asking the OGCMA to remove or cover religious elements. They are asking the NBE to provide a graduation venue free of religious elements. That’s a big difference!
As to whether kids are harmed by being in a religious venue for graduation is not the point. Certainly I was not harmed. But I certainly did wonder why at our schools, we never celebrated Jewish holidays and I did feel a certain uneasiness at singing hymns that seemed focused on promoting Christianity over Judiasm or Islam.
Respectfully,
Carol
Btw, regarding the quotation from the Treaty of Tripoli. Cut-and-paste is a short-cut. Are you claiming GROVER TOO’s comment is invalid because he didn’t type the quote out by hand? The treaty is important because it is accompanied by a personal statement by John Adams that confirms and recommends every clause, including the clear statement that the U.S. is NOT founded on the Christian religion. The statement in the treaty was obviously intended to assure “Musselmen” that our intent was not religious animus. However, if you have been reading a “law professor” who claims Adams was backing a statement he knew to be false, then you should check that “professor’s” credentials very carefully. Adams was a prickly personality, but he wasn’t a liar.
Stephen, if there is no religious content to the ceremony or venue, then the case is moot and everyone can forget about it. If “Onward Christian Soldiers,” “War March of the Priests,” and invocation are not religious, or absent, as you claim, then the ACLU would have nothing to defend and would never have entered the case.
Since it is a grand, capacious space, everyone would like to see the graduation continue in the Great Auditorium. The only question is whether students are subjected to a particular religious view in order to participate in that venue. The ACLU is acting on behalf of ALL the students (present and future,) not just the ones who agree with you. Hymns and prayers led by students do not circumvent the issue, especially if they were asked to do so by faculty.
Perhaps the best, and most economical solution is a statement at the beginning by the BOE that the graduation is not intended to have any religious overtones, and apologies to any students who may be disturbed or intimidated by religious symbols that are part of the structure.
I must admit I am confused about the furor over The Great Auditorium and graduation. I guess I feel if there is a problem people could choose not to go in the Great Auditorium and just use the school auditorium. When I graduated from Dover High School I think we were allowed two tickets. We were not fortunate to have such a beautiful venue as the Neptune High School has had for decades.
Did you just cut and paste from Wikipedia? I have read that text in a few different sources. I do believe the intent of the treaty was to placate the rulers of the Mediterranean nations who performed regular acts of piracy on the United States Ships. I understand that portion you cut and pasted was meant to reassure the rulers of Tripoli that we were not founded as a Christian nation. I can copy comments by law professors that explain the true intent was to reassure the rulers of that country that it was a treaty between two sovereign nations and not two religious states.
That being said, relating to the current issue, the BOE has agreed to remove ALL religious parts from the ceremony. As for the facility, at no time is anyone obligated to acknowledge a Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Taoist, Buddhist or other religion, bow, kneel, or say a prayer. Personally, to say that the mere presence of a cross is threatening and offensive is a little much.
So, Neptune’s good as long as no one from the graduating class is from Tripoli.
FYI:
The Treaty of Tripoli (Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary) was the first treaty concluded between the United States of America and Tripoli, signed at Tripoli on November 4, 1796 and at Algiers (for a third-party witness) on January 3, 1797. It was submitted to the Senate by President John Adams, receiving ratification unanimously from the U.S. Senate on June 7, 1797 and signed by Adams, taking effect as the law of the land on June 10, 1797.
The treaty was a routine diplomatic agreement but has gained attention because the English version included a clause about religion in America:[3]
“As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.”
Okay, so,I’ve been reading more of the posts (for which I apologize for not going through thoroughly before initially posting). I will respond and comment on a few more things. With the exception of last year’s Onward Christian Soldiers, which I’ve already acknowledged wasn’t the best choice to sing (but is far from threatening and degrading for those of other faiths to listen to), the program AND the facility do not force the students or attendees to a particular religious practice.
I understand that the complainant and the ACLU are also offended and fighting over the “War March of the Priests”. This musical selection is not religious, but rather a piece of classical organ music with no association with any religion. If you wish to question the choice, I can, without question. reassure you that there was no thought of religious undertones in its selection.
stp,
Sorry I’m late to the table here with the banter, but have you been to a Neptune graduation? Are you assuming by comments here that a religious point of view was pushed or have you actually witnessed graduation for the last 20 to 30 years? If you have, you would know that, as I previously stated, Onward Christian Soldiers is not commonly sung. The Invocation I was always amazed (happily) that it survived all these years. Unfortunately, I can understand this being removed in today’s climate. While I have not had the pleasure of attending for the last 10 years, I can tell you that, in the mid ’80’s, “The Lord’s Prayer” was removed with the closing prayer shortly thereafter and no other religious song or ritual was used during the ceremony. (Of note, the Invocation, and (the former closing prayer) were said by students, not clergy, and were of generic nature not acknowledging a specific faith.) I attended the ceremony as a guest from the late 70’s, and participated in the ceremony from 1983 until 2000 and was quite familiar with the order of the ceremony. No religious cleric, preacher, or representative has been a part of the graduation ceremony for as long as I can remember.
Since I am not on the Township committee and not the Police Commissioner, I will be happy to respond to the above comments. As for the grandparent being offended…I will accept and respect her displeasure and I will grant you that Onward Christian Soldiers (which is not traditionally sung in the graduation) was not appropriate for the occasion. I still haven’t heard if it bothered the grandchild, whose graduation it was. Is it a matter of known fact that the grandparent is the legal guardian, or rather someone from out of state?
The comment “It’s a legal issue, and a matter of settled law” speaks volumes as to the amount of respect given to those who do find this place special. Also, you seem struck by the “greater good comment.” Allow me to rephrase this. You feel it is in the best interest in the majority of the community, to destroy (yes destroy), what is a very special event in a very special location, because one person or family was offended? What about the civil rights of the majority of those who find this event IN THIS VENUE as truly special. Most graduates of Neptune will tell you that you don’t graduate until that flag lights up. I have been a graduate. I have been the organist, and believe me the site makes it special. If the few items are “cosmetic” then they should be just as easily overlooked by one who could consider them offensive as it would be to cover them.
Yes, I am passionate about this. I don’t speak out about much, but this bothers me to no end. It is a facility that has been used by the Board for graduation for longer than most of our parent’s lives. It is large enough that all students can invite as many family members as need be. It is close enough that those who will walk there, can. And yes, there are those who walk. I wish we could leave it up to the students and parents/guardians. If the majority of the people feel that this is a special place for the Neptune graduation why not respect their rights? Oh, that’s right, it’s a matter of settled law….
The commenter mentions one point that may not have discussed here before. He raises the issue that whoever is bringing this case has no child or grandchild in the class of 2011. So does the complainant have “standing” to take a legal route to stop the graduation of the current senior class? Unfortunately, we have had no lawyers commenting here to help us out with our understanding of the legalities. We only know that the ACLU has threatened to sue on behalf of someone who has no “skin in the game” in 2011.
STP:
1. You know, there’s something to be said for the rights of the individual not to be coerced into religious practice. If that were the case, I and many others would stand with you; but it’s not the case—is it?
This is about kids graduating from high school. When parents and grand parents get involved like this, it overshadows what the kids accomplish and generally ruins the event for them. Do you think the average kid cares about a bit of religious art? No, they care about getting their diploma and getting to the parties afterwards.
2. Do I think a student should stand up for his rights? Of course. But I think the student – or rather the student’s grandparents in this particular case – should consider a couple of things before taking a stand. The first consideration is whether or not it’s worth ruining the graduation of the class of 2011. (Let’s not forget that the student in question is in the Class of 2012.) I’m sure all the graduating seniors are thanking this kid for pulling these shenanigans now … a month out from graduation.
3. The Great Auditorium isn’t a church. It’s a multi-use facility— just like Giants Stadium, the Meadowlands, and the Count Basie theater. It’s only a church when it’s used as a church. Since it’s not being used as a church, I’m not sure what the issue is. Is it a couple of “religious themed” pieces are of art? So avert your eyes. I see a lot of stuff every day that offends my sensibilities, both religious and otherwise. But I understand my right to practice my religion as I choose begins and ends with me and I can only be offended as I choose.
Ms Jahn, this is not intended as a personal attack, but since you addressed your comment to me, I feel I should respond.
It’s instructive that you use the term “muddy the waters” in a comment that appears to be intended to do just that.
The only issue is whether graduates must be subjected to the promotion of a particular religion in order to participate in the ceremony. It’s a legal issue, and a matter of settled law. Everything you mention that does not address that issue Is “muddying the waters.”
For example:
1.) The “kid” did not on her own, without her “grandparents,” go to the NBE and call in the ACLU for help. It’s not a class action suit. Therefore, in your opinion, her case lacks merit. Grandparents (and I assume legal guardians) are not allowed to act on behalf of a minor, in your opinion?
2.) No one has ever suggested anything about baptismal fonts or declaring as Christians. Wild exaggerations only muddy the issue.
3.) “personal vendettas….” Ad hominem attacks do not add merit to any argument, but only serve to distract from the issue. The “vendetta” is in your mind only.
4.) “Communities are organized for the GREATER GOOD.”… Are you actually claiming that the majority should be entitled to trample the rights of the minority and silence them? This is a matter civil rights, not an election.
5.) Are you claiming that the graduates won’t be happy unless there are religious symbols at the graduation? If there is a “cloud,” it’s from people who are loudly objecting to a few cosmetic changes that the graduates wouldn’t ever notice otherwise. Every year millions of graduates all over the country have a happy, amazing and memorable ceremony without being subjected to the intrusion of a particular religion. And they ALL enjoy it, not just the ones who share your religious ideas.
In your previous comment you stated: “Maybe they should consider pulling their grandchild out of NTHS for senior year and sending them to Ranney or some other private school or county specialty high school where their delicate sensibilities won’t be so offended….”
Do you actually think a student should be pulled from public school rather than stand up for her rights. Is that your official position as a member of the Township Committee, and, I believe, current Police Commissioner?
With all due respect, perhaps you should take a step back and reconsider the matter more carefully.
Great comments Mary Beth!!!
Re Iris: This is an AUDITORIUM that happens to be used as a church. Please show me one, just one other church in the U.S. that has a 50 foot electric American flag over it’s pulpit. There is 1000% more AMERICAN PRIDE at that graduation ceremony than there is Christianity.
To the person commenting on the tax purposes of the property there are MANY reasons to have a tax free property that DO NOT involve religion.
This venue is used for SECULAR purposes….the graduation is a SECULAR event. For a quick moment…let’s talk tax dollars. The cost of renting this venue is 1/7th the cost of renting the PNC Arts Center.
Yes…everyone get a grip and think of the graduates above your own ideologies. It is THEIR day…..most of us have had our own. Let them have theirs.
STP, no “kid” raised an issue about the venue. A kid’s *grandparents* raised the issue. It’s not even a class action suit. And it’s not like each graduate must be dunked in a baptismal font and declare themselves Christian to get their diploma. Let’s get a grip on what the actual facts are, and not muddy the waters with personal vendettas against the CMA or Christanity in general.
Communities are organized for the GREATER GOOD. Really, to me, the only people who should be deciding this issue are the graduates and their families. They’re the important people in this debate.
Can I be so bold as to suggest that the one thing we ALL agree on is that we want our graduates to have a happy,joyous high-school graduation, with no cloud hanging over their heads? Many of our kids get a bad rap as it is; many of them struggled to get to this point. Can’t we be proud of them for graduating, wish them the best life has to offer, and hope that their graduation day is all they want it to be? Perhaps we need to focus a little more on the reason for the commotion, rather than the commotion itself.
Denis, I will put it on the next meeting’s workshop agenda for discussion.
The Auditorium may host a variety of events, but it is recognized by Neptune Township as a church. Total property tax assessment: almost five million dollars; property taxes paid: 0. Yes, it is a great historic site with a great tradition, but it is a church, and Neptune should not be holding a public high school graduation ceremony inside a church, synagogue, mosque or temple.
I am not against religion. It is obviously a part of the human experience, and a lot of people like it. A large portion of the U.S. population say they attend services once a week (about 35% or so). This makes regular religious observance much more prevalent here than in other advanced western democracies.
That said, separation of church and state is settled law here in the United States. Regardless of whether or not you agree, no person can be legally subjected to a religious event, and publicly financed entities (e.g. schools) can’t legally hold an event in a religious forum. Anyone who is offended by a graduation in a religious facility in which religious symbols are present is fully within their rights to object.
Dierdre, if everyone agrees that the removal of religious themes and songs is the right thing to do, then why are they not applauding the kid who had the courage to bring the issue to light? That’s my main point.
Re your 2nd paragraph, you should note that if anyone had objections to any of those things, they would have done so long ago. Nobody does. So no need to argue against far-fetched, preposterous consequences that nobody has even remotely suggested. (Ever hear of a logical fallacy called the “strawman tactic.”)
The question is whether the graduates are compelled to engage in an activity that suggests the promotion of a particular religion. I think the judge quoted in Zelda’s comment states it quite clearly.
If the auditorium is indeed “multi-purpose,” all they really need to do is raise the flag so it’s in front of the cross (which I think they do a lot anyway,) to make it clear that this event is not a religious promotion, as it apparently has been right up until now.
I disagree stp. The issue is not whether the NBE can forcefully subject students to a particular religious practice. Almost everyone who has written in to this blog has acknowledged that they cannot, which is why there seems to be little objection to the removal of religious themes and songs from the graduation. Forcing graduating seniors to sing “Onward Christian Soldiers” at their graduation was neither appropriate nor constitutional.
The issue is whether being asked to sit through a secular event in a room that happens to have a few religious symbols unrelated to that event incorporated into its architecture is also subjecting people to a particular religious practice. It seems to me that once we accept that notion, we’d have to say that any religious structure which can be seen from a public byway should be forced to remove all religious ornamentation from its facade lest some unsuspecting person be forced to see the symbol of a religion not his own while he is driving down a publicly owned street. And what about religious art in publicly funded museums? A quick Google search reveals that the National Gallery contains many works with overtly religious themes. Must they be veiled as well, in order to protect the sensibilities of non-religious art lovers?
stp… there is no religious practice going on here. If someone is offended by the venue they have the choice to not attend the ceremony that 99% of the students relish. Their diploma will be mailed to them toot sweet.
At this point, it might serve as a reminder that the only issue is whether the NBE can forcefully subject students to a particular religious practice.
It has nothing whatever to do with anyone’s freedom to practice religion of any kind, in any way and whenever they want.
But, citizen A’s freedom of religion does not entitle A to force his religion onto citizen B, thus depriving B of his freedom of religion.
Dear Ms Jahn, the issue is being negotiated by the NBE and ACLU to avoid a legal battle. If that happens anyway, let the courts decide. See Zelda’s comment above. Judges are better qualified than I, or you, to decide the issue.
As long as the graduates are not subjected against their will to promotion of a particular religion, as they certainly have been in the recent past, I see no reason for any objection, although the whole thorny issue could be avoided by choosing a different venue.
Once again, my main point is that the complainants have demonstrated extraordinary courage, and citizenship, and should be congratulated, not reviled. It takes bravery to make a stand against the mob.
I am so delighted to see the outcry of so many folks. I just made a call to the American Center for Law and Justice. I hoping they will aid us in this fight. If any of you folks have never heard of them please, please take a look. http://www.ACLJ.ORG. The only way to fight back is to make your voice heard. Remember if you do nothing then the enemy will win.
As we know, this issue of church/state relations has deep roots in American law. Here’s a succinct historical account I found on Wikipedia:
“The modern concept of a wholly secular government is sometimes credited to the writings of English philosopher John Locke, but the phrase ‘separation of church and state’ in this context is generally traced to a 1 January 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson, addressed to the Danbury, Connecticut, Baptist Association, and published in a Massachusetts newspaper. Echoing the language of the founder of the first Baptist church in America, Roger Williams — who had written in 1644 of ‘[A] hedge or wall of separation between the garden of the church and the wilderness of the world’ — Jefferson wrote, ‘I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.’
“Jefferson’s metaphor of a wall of separation has been cited repeatedly by the U.S. Supreme Court. In its 1879 Reynolds v. United States decision, the court allowed that Jefferson’s comments ‘may be accepted almost as an authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the [First] Amendment.’ In the 1947 Everson v. Board of Education decision, Justice Hugo Black wrote, ‘In the words of Thomas Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect a wall of separation between church and state.’ However, the Court has not always interpreted the constitutional principle as meaning absolute separation of government from all things religious.
“Public debates about the proper extent of church/state separation in the U.S. remain vigorous and impassioned. Politically active evangelical Christians such as David Barton, a former co-chair of the Texas Republican Party, emphasize the religiosity of the nation’s founders and assert that ‘separation of church and state,’ as widely understood by modern historians and jurists, is a ‘myth’ and that the U.S. was founded as a religious, Christian nation.”
That little essay seems to draw the boundaries of the argument pretty neatly.
Mary Beth,
If you feel so strongly that the graduates should walk in the Great Auditorium, ask your fellow committee members to pass a resolution supporting the tradition. It only takes three!
I am soooo shocked by this action on an institution that has been around for over 100 years!! It never seemed to bother any of the other classes that graduated there before. Why don’t they just remove everything that has God’s name on it!! We are a Judeo-Christian country and if we don’t take a stand now we will lose all our liberties!!
We do live in a country that has freedom of religion, but that doesn’t mean to take out what our founding fathers fought and died for. If you don’t want to pray you don’t have to but no one has a right to tell us we can’t. That is our “civil” right and liberty as an American.
The “stepped program” I described, STP, were for separate high schools – Bishop McDevitt, Archbishop Wood, Lansdale Catholic, Archbishop Ryan, Father Judge, Little Flower,Northeast Catholic and others. It wasn’t stepped by *homeroom* of the same school.
And if the singing of “Onward Christian Soldiers” and the convocation have been removed from the program, I don’t see the issue. Are these complainants going to ask next that no one wear personal religious jewelry to the ceremony? This is a 90-minute ceremony held in the graduates’ hometown in a facility that is multipurpose – sometimes religious, sometimes secular – that makes high school graduation accessible and affordable for those who benefit from it most: the graduates. It’s their day, not the day of the grandparents of a junior graduating next year. Maybe they should consider pulling their grandchild out of NTHS for senior year and sending them to Ranney or some other private school or county specialty high school where their delicate sensibilities won’t be so offended.
Alison, there is no reason why the graduates would not have just as much fun and celebration in an appropriate venue. Some of them would have a lot more fun. The new high-school performance space would be perfect. And what’s wrong with a stepped program as Mary Beth has described, with room for all?
Being forced to sing “Onward Christian Soldiers” is degrading (and threatening) to any Jewish, Muslim, Hindi, Bhuddist, atheist, etc. graduates. Why should these kids be humiliated on their graduation day but forced to go along for fear of assault by the “majority?” That’s why there is a Bill of Rights. That’s why we do not live in a religious dictatorship, and why our nation has survived nearly 220 years since.
Fred, with all due respect, if your question is more than a rhetorical flourish, you can find the answer all by yourself by reading the first six sentences of my comment.
Stp, do you really think many teenagers’ graduations are ruined by two crosses and a “do good works” sign”? Do you think that while they’re taking pictures with their friends, listening for their names to be called to go get their diploma, and throwing their caps in the air, they’re sulking about any of that stuff? No, they’re not. It’s their priggish grandparents who are – the same grandparents who most likely would be horribly uncomfortable if they were forced to sit on football or basketball bleachers if a school facility was used, IF each family could be allotted more than one or two tix per graduating senior. Maybe this will go another way altogether and that will actually happen, where each senior only gets one or two tix and brothers, sisters, and grandparents and aunts and uncles don’t get to go to graduation. It would hurt the kids, but it would serve these people right, to be shut out for all the trouble they’re causing people who don’t deserve it.
Interestingly enough, I and my siblings all graduated from 12 years of Catholic school in Philadelphia and our school and other Catholic schools in our archdiocese had to rent a secular venue to fit the graduates and families — the late, great Valley Forge Music Fair, which was a good half-hour to forty minutes away from each school, and maybe more. (Though this venue had a revolving stage, they turned it off for the graduations.) Graduations started at 9:30 and went on every 90 minutes until 7:30 that night, because none of the schools had large enough auditoriums to hold the graduates and more than 1 member of their families and some schools (like the one we went to) didn’t have our own athletic facilities –we rented them from a neighboring public school. We all had separate religious services down at the Cathedral Basilica of Saints Peter and Paul, but that was separate from graduation, and kids who used our Catholic school as a private school simply didn’t attend. I don’t remember hearing anyone say at our graduations that the facility wasn’t Catholic enough for them.
Oh dear! Imagine the stigma attached to those graduates who will go through the rest of their lives forced to have the name of a Roman deity on their diplomas! When does it stop?
I would like to comment to stp above. Apologize??? For what???
As a 1975 graduate, I was honored to have my ceremony at the Great Auditorium. My husband graduated in 1976. My two sons graduated in 1983 and 1986. There was nothing greater than to receive our diplomas in this historical site. Okay…take out the religious content from the ceremony to appease the complainant.
There is no experience like marching down those aisles, receiving your diploma on stage and having the American Flag light up behind you. Just ask any senior and they will tell you that these are memories that last a lifetime!
Eliminate the religious content from the agenda but not the venue. The Great Auditorium is a right of passage for the Neptune High School graduates!
The ACLU is ridiculous! And you who agree w/this are as well!! One person disagrees w/the graduation location because of some religious overtones, and everything has to change. What happened to majority rules? This country was founded on Christian beliefs and the majority agree w/those beliefs. I’m tired of hearing the voices of only a few people (finger points at you ACLU) and not the majority. Fight them all the way Neptune! In fact, put more crosses up!
I have been in OG for about 30 years, and we have had great graduation exercises at the auditorium for decades without any problems. Now someone develops a problem with it, and a great tradition is in jeopardy.
I think that this complaint is due to an excess of political correctness. When does all this nonsense stop?
It takes a tremendous amount of courage to raise this issue, and I commend this person having the fortitude, and patriotism, to stand up for what’s right. How many other kids have had their graduation, which should be a joyous event, darkened under the shadow of someone else’s religion, yet were simply afraid to speak up?
Would all the pious commentators here be so outraged if they, themselves, were forced agains their will to graduate in a synagogue or a mosque? Vanity, vanity….
Of course the CMA should NOT remove the crosses. That is wholely impractical, and unecessary. The graduation should always have been held in the high-school auditorium, without any inappropriate religious overtones.
In addition, the Neptune school district should issue appologies to all thoses unfortunate graduates in the past who were troubled by the religious overtones, but who were too fearful to object.
“On May 31, the U.S. District Court for the District of Connecticut ruled that this year’s ceremonies for both high schools must be moved to a secular venue. U.S. District Judge Janet Hall said the school system’s decision to hold graduations in a church violated the First Amendment and sent the message to students that the schools favor religion over non-religion and one religious belief over others.” A church, no matter how historical, is still a church.
The ACLU could care less how many people come out tomorrow night. This new PC world is going to be the end of lots of traditions as long as lawyers take the cases.
Dear ACLU…
The words “separation of church and state” are no where in the Constitution of the United States. If you are referring to the First Amendment to the Constitution what it actually says is that Congress “shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” It sounds to me like that’s an argument in favor of our case to honor God as being a part of our education.
I certainly hope they are anticipating the size of the crowd that will turn out for this meeting tomorrow night!
Great Auditorium comments aside: It is hard to believe that, in this day and age, they were singing “Onward Christian Soldiers” at last year’s graduation. In our multi-religion society, “Christian Soldiers” does not make sense.
Seriously, how could they even ask for those “alterations”? I’m not even religious, and it doesn’t bother me! I can have my values and not be offended by the symbols of other people’s values. In fact, I had my graduation there and it was awesome! You know what offends me? Parents screaming at and smacking their children around on the sidewalk in front of the ice cream parlor. Now that doesn’t jive with my values. Perhaps we should have THEM removed!
I know it is tradition but the high school has a lovely new performance center that would do just fine.
Accept the Auditorium ‘as is’ or hold the thing elsewhere. No changes should be made. My graduation was in the school gym. It’s not about the where, it’s about the accomplishment.
As a former graduate of Neptune, I find these complaints ridiculous. First of all, this woman won’t even be at the graduation if her child already graduated. Also, where are all the other people that are complaining about the religious symbols? We haven’t heard from them. I don’t think it makes any sense that the ACLU would pursue this & penalize the Camp Meeting or Neptune. I wonder how many of them agree with the woman, really. I hope that the Board takes a stand against the complaints of this woman & I agree that the graduating class should vote as well.
There are more important things going on in the world than complaining about something like this.
It is a real shame, that one person can create such turmoil.
Let the graduation be in the Auditorium of their beautiful high school and be done with it.
Ocean Grove’s Auditorium is a special place and whoever does not like it, stay away, it’s that simple.
Wow, I wish my graduation would have been in the Great Auditorium. I always thought how lucky for the Neptune High School students…. that they have this huge beautiful unique historical location to hold this occasion. There are plenty of non religious activities being held there, concerts and such. I kind of see it as also a community center. Where else would they have it??
Great Auditorium belongs to the Camp Meeting and under no circumstances should they be forced to change it. You don’t like it take the graduation elsewhere.
How come for so many years it didn’t bother anybody?
Worshiping God is first in the Ocean Grove Auditorium.
I’m no fan of the Camp Meeting, but I would have to side with them on this one. The ACLU has done a lot of positive things in this country thru the years, but when they take on a ridiculous lawsuit like this – it hurts their reputation.
It sounds ridiculous to me!! Why not have the graduating
class vote on it!! We are a democracy, aren’t we!! It is
their right to have what they want.
If the majority rather have the religious symbols removed,
then have the ceremony in the high school auditorium.
However, one person shouldn’t speak for ALL!! I’m betting
on the graduating class voting to keep their graduation
at the Great Auditorium with nothing changed!!
I find complaints like these to be ridiculous. Why should so many concessions be made to accommodate one person? While I can understand adjusting the program to omit religious content since it’s a public school, it is absurd to ask the Auditorium to take down or cover those huge crosses. If people find the presence of a cross to be that offensive, they can skip the ceremony. One of the great things about America is our freedom– and this includes the freedom to stay home if you can’t stand being in a church for graduation. Your senior will still get a diploma and you won’t ruin a great ceremony for the rest of the graduating class.
While I would agree that religious content does not belong in the actual graduation ceremony, I find it hard to believe that someone would ask for physical alterations to the most famous building in Neptune’s Historic District — one in which graduations traditionally have been held for over half a century (even before Ocean Grove *became* a part of Neptune 🙂 !)
Speaking of tradition…
I sure hope that no one is planning on giving their graduating senior anything as horrifying as cash for a graduation gift, seeing as how it too is riddled with religious “stuff.”