We have had a lively debate in our comments section regarding the Kirk Cameron controversy, but the number who participated is quite small compared to our total number of readers. So now is a chance for the silent majority to weigh in.
EDITOR’S NOTE: Tuesday morning: The results of this poll have been compromised by the Ocean Grove United which sent an email to 74 of its members asking them to go to this site and vote YES. This occurred just a few hours after we posted the poll. Usually our polls are populated by the usual ebb and flow of visitors to the blog—a randomly varied group of people who offer their opinions. But this attempt to promote a group of YES votes is unfortunate because it skews the result. We know of no opposite campaign that might create some balance.
Rather than take down the whole poll, you can weigh its validity for yourselves. We never have claimed that our polls are scientific, but they usually do offer some sense of our readers’ opinions. However, in my view, this poll is essentially useless. You may, however, continue to vote—for now.
NOTE JUNE 12: We have just learned that the mailing list referred to above was not , in fact, the OGU mailing list. Instead it was the personal mailing list of a Grover who was urging her/his friends to vote YES. I apologize for that error.
Paul @ Blogfinger
OK. What if a speaker was coming to a very public forum who said similar things against Jews or Catholics or Mormons or Baptists? How about a particular ethnic group however large or small? Would there not be the same passionate objections raised by those who feel they are being attacked not only by the speaker, but also by those sponsoring that individual?
Understanding is a two-way street. Compassion is not a sometime thing.
To paraphrase Someone, Love God fully, but also love your neighbor as yourself. Not much room for interpretation, imho.
All, I think we have “killed this one to death.” There are those that will not understand or accept the true Constitutional meaning of free speech, and will accept slippery slope equivocations that lead to banning speakers that are expressing OPINIONS. Mind you, opinions are not hate speech per say.
I do not agree with gay marriage and thus probably agree with some of what Cameron has to say. That does not make me guilty of hate speech.
I’ve made my points. This one, I am done with this issue.
hobe4030, I think you’re missing the point. It doesn’t matter what would actually be said or accomplished at your OGU event. To make your analogy accurate, the picketers would only have to be there because someone at the OGU event has a belief that is different than theirs.
Hobe: And I think the point is that not everyone who goes to hear Cameron speak about marriage shares his beliefs about homosexuality, just as not everyone who supports OGU is a homosexual. Just because you believe some things a person says is not a blanket endorsement of that person.
i listen to WABC, a strong conservative station, but I do not agree with everything Rush Limbaugh says.
Maxster and one other in this discussion drew a comparison between picketing a Kurt Cameron event and an OGU event (as at Seagrass). I am curious as to what the picketing of an OGU event like this would be a demonstration against. Would it be that the OGU has these events specifically to help businesses in town get through the long winter? Would it be that food is collected and delivered for the local Food Bank? Could it be that the OGU has publicly denigrated other members of the community? Could it be that many who attend these events are gay members of the community? I don’t think it would be either of the first three, but it is sad that there are members of our community who would think that picketing a group whose mission of fairness and equality and harmony in the community is comparable to Kirk Cameron’s stated opinion. Some may have to be reminded that being gay is not an opinion. I also point out that not all members of OGU are gay.
Maxster, very well stated. He said that “hate speech” is not speech that just differs from mine or yours. If we start stopping everyone from speaking because they differ from someone else’s opinion, then where will it end?
My street has a variety of people on it. I’m the 3rd lesbian (that i know of) on the block: the single guy next door; the drinkers down the street; the homosexual man across the way; the old people and there is also the street scummer. But, I really could care less about Kirk.
The only thing im pi$$y about is the possible parking issue the Kirk-followers will cause w/their mini-vans and jesus fish stickers. Really …this could just be a non issue. I’m not “anti”, bc Im very proud of who I am, but I AM anti petty nonsense that just makes people bicker. Everyone should just try to bring more positive vibes rather than bring the town down w/ negativity. Its one night and as I’ve read, I highly doubt he’s gonna go on some anti gay tirade during his little roadshow.
If he’s smart and im sure he is..or if he’s not, his people are. Im sure some of my fellow LGBT people who plan to protest have something better to do on a Sat night— come on. That won’t help anything except probably get you angrier…….maybe I’m wrong. but I dont like all the negativity this is bringing up amongst neighbors.
The CMA guides to the Cross, not the flag.
@Anonymous
YES, I do support Free Speech as the Constitution intended it. YES, there are things prohibited such as hate and bias crimes; but such a “crime” has not taken place yet. So, if Kirk is there to speak on marriage, I will take his word that is what the theme of his speech is about.
To me, the following quote from Kirk are not hate crimes…
“Of homosexuality, he’d said, “I think that it’s unnatural, I think that it’s detrimental and ultimately destructive to so many of the foundations of civilization.” If it were a hate crime, he would have been charged with one.
“I think” is the operative word here…
These are opinions, and thus protected by Free Speech. Do you want me to protest and try to get Asbury Park to drop Gay Pride day because I don’t like your opinions?
Of course not.
As My Take has noted ” He has been invited to present a Christian-themed “marriage event” This is not the movie Minority Report with the “pre crime police” trying to prevent something that hasn’t happened yet.
Besides, with all of the hoopla that is being created, do you now think he will cross the line?
@happy2 – Why don’t you just wait and see what hateful words are said? What is poison about a marriage themed event; other than you are upset that there is no “sanctioned” gay marriage and that Kirk Cameron has a different opinion than you?
The CMA is Ocean Grove. And where does Ocean Grove need to guide Christianity? Let it guide us all to the shore of American Patriotism. We all live side-by-side, with equality under the laws. We live side-by-side, side-by-side; under the peace of the sky, under the peace of our lives.
I must be missing something here. This seems so obvious to me. People who say hurtful, hateful things that condemn the lives of others should not be tolerated by anyone. We are all people and should all should be trying to live with one another. Hate speech is dangerous and does lead to violence, bullying, suicide and other horrible things. It only takes not letting these haters spread their poison to make a better world. Of course I understand freedom of speech, but I do not condone hateful words from anyone. And neither should the CMA. To me, this is on par with having the KKK speak. In my mind , it is no different. Children who hear him speak will be swayed by his hateful words and will think it is ok to tease or bully someone who is different.
@life is too short, you have it backwards my friend, it is the CMA that is dividing this community, not the gay people. KC needs to be disinvited. He spews poisonous venom.
Let’s keep ourselves honest here. Kirk Cameron has not been invited to OG to spew hate speech against gays, nor is he remotely likely to. He has been invited to present a Christian-themed “marriage event” in which he will discuss ways to encourage and preserve relationships built on love and understanding. Granted, he has said stupid things in the past (but even then not nearly as many as the comments here would have you believe… he makes money off this stuff and isn’t trying to court controversy). Realize that he’s a fundamentalist Christian. His personal beliefs on homosexuality (ignorant and misguided though I find them to be) should really come as no surprise to anyone.
Kirk Cameron is simply coming to town to present a peaceful event in which he will discuss love and understanding in a fundamentalist Christian context. Ultimately this is what most summer speakers do. Accept this as his objective (that, and making money of course) and move on.
Cameron is really not a major force one way or the other in this world. Why put a spotlight on him?
Why do we need to “please get over IT or live with IT” IT is not nice nor really reasonable so why should we? So we just shut up- so we just tolerate IT. No “we” will not.
@Maxter
So you support total free speech, and if someone doesn’t like it, you say that’s life. Just a question. So if a hoard of protesters come into town and say things offensive to the Christians, you are perfectly supportive of their rights and freedoms to speek, even if highly offensive and upsetting to Ocean Grocers, right? Is this a two way thing, I mean? Or no. Freedom to speak rudeness is just for Christians, or should gays not even worry about feelings in the possible upcoming protests?
@Wisher
The world is imperfect and people are not obligated to do such things, nor does most of the world respect the Golden Rule. Utopia does not exist and no way, no how will people be able to force it into existence.
With all due respect, please get over it and just learn to live with one another despite our differences. If someone doesn’t “roll up the window” and you hear something you don’t like, live with it. That’s life..
OhGee: OGU reports that 2/3 of their members are Grovers. We have no rules that only Grovers can participate in our polls. As for the NO supporters, I did not say that they were not lobbying for votes; I said that we don’t know if they have.
But everyone who voted is counted, so, although I may complain about what happened, our “little poll” is still up, and everyone who views it can decide how valid the result is.
Addendum: We have just learned that the mailing list in question is not the official OGU list. Instead, it is the personal mailing list of a Grover who was enlisting 74 friends to vote YES. We apologize for the error. PG
Dr. Paul, I believe a very high percentage of Ocean Grove United members reside in Ocean Grove. So its not like outsiders were invited to the polling party. And if you believe that those who strongly support Kirk Cameron have not contacted their OG friends and associates to participate in your poll, you are naive. The Kirk Cameron issue gained nationwide attention when he was on Piers Morgan. Your ‘little’ poll relates to something much bigger, and is a very hot-button issue in this country right now…… gays and gay marriages.
Maxter:
Your hypothetical needs to be closer to the situation here in this town. You are on Main Steet the the light by the gates, and a black family that you know lives here in town pulls up next to you. All of a sudden, Rush says that blacks are harming the foundations of our civilization and he is calling for a constitutional amendment to ban black marriages. You roll up your window to prevent them from hearing him. Did someone require you to roll up your window? No. The reason you rolled up your window was because you applied the Golden Rule and the Prayer of Saint Francis: treat your neighbor as you would like to be treated.
Here is an another hypothetical. You are a deeply devout Christian. A gay family pulls up next to you at the light at the gate. The gays have the Lady Gaga song “Judas” on the radio, which they know will offend the Christian Ocean Grovers. They roll up their window. Are they required to roll up their window? No. They rolled up their window out of common courtesy and respect. They did something kind to to you. They did the right thing. And you smiled to them in thanks and gave a little wave.
OhGee: Of course they do, but this is the first time, as far as I know, that an organized group has asked a large group of people with one point of view to vote in our small polls. OGU has every right to do what they did, but it does skew our results. You can’t compare our polls, with an average of 100-200 voters, to CNN which probably has hundreds of thousands of participants or more.
Dr. Paul, people write emails all the time encouraging others to respond to polls that are important to them. Whether is a Blogfinger or a CNN poll, it’s common place.
The media spun his opinion to be nasty. and he is not on an anti gay crusade or out to get you if you are. It’s just his opinion that he is allowed to have just as you are. He does not preach anti gay at his events – he actually encourages people to strengthen relationships with trust and love- that’s not anigay! that’s Pro EVERYONE!
All of you that bought a house in Ocean Grove need to READ UP on the OGCMA BY-LAWS. You have no say in whom the OGCMA invites – but you can suggest if you like. So get involved in your community instead of trying to divide it and isolate yourselves as a group.
Take all of this anger and make it into something good. Come on already – Life is too short to let this rob you of any more joy.
Let me present this a different way…
If I was listening to Rush Limbaugh in my car, and he was railing at President Obama; and I pulled up next to a car full of Black American’s at a traffic light and we both had our windows open; should I be required to turn down my volume as to not offend those in the other car?
(Now please note, I am not here to debate Rush or Obama, just to present a hypothetical situation)
Or, because I differ from the Gay lifestyle and various agendas; why can’t I picket a meeting of Ocean Grove United?
Of course, you know the answer to both situations; no I should not be putting my windows up or picketing a meeting of OGU.
But those situations illustrate the hypocrisy of those who want to ban KC. You just have to learn to ignore each other in these situations
Just one man’s thoughts…
If gays one day take over Ocean Grove and buy all the property, and take over the CMA, life could be different here. At the Great Gay Auditorium in 2025, they might host a celebrity who said that Christianity is destroying the foundations of society and that the Federal Constitution should be amended to bar Christian marriages. Some old-time Ocean Grovers object. They say it is disrespectful to feature a prominent figure who denigrates Christianity and lies about Christianity. They ask the CMGay to not host the speaker, if only to show respect for the Ocean Grover old timers, and their contributions to the town over the years. Here is the CMGay’s response:
The CMGay has decided to disinvite the speaker due to the recognition that it would be hosting a speaker known to use hate speech against Christians. Because many Christians live in Ocean Grove, we are sensitive to making sure that all Christians who live here feel welcome and a integral part of the success of the town. We do not feel that the divisiveness of the speaker would add to the event, and may distract from the spirituality, joy and peace we are trying to foster though our events. The CMGay would like to take this time to thank and appreciate all of the members of our community that have shaped Ocean Grove to stay the peaceful, joyful seaside resort we all love. God Bless You All.
— the CMGay.
Deirdre, it doesn’t surprise me that Cameron is also anti-Catholic. I have a Christian Fundalmentalist in my family and they are very anti-pope, anti-Mary, anti-Rome. Some are also anti-Jewish. I have seen some propoganda my relative subscribes to and it showed a cartoon of a Rabbi burning in hell. And BTW a Google search turns up that Cameron is also anti-Mormon. Again, sad but no shocker.
I find this whole discussion so very sad. Of course Kirk Cameron has a Constitutional right to express his beliefs, and the OGCMA has a right to invite anyone they choose. No one that I can identify here is suggesting that the government come in and stop OGCMA from having Cameron speak. But when OGCMA invites someone who’s main theme seems to be to condemn other people, I have a right to think less of them for it. And by the way, the gay community is not the only group that Cameron has condemned, though they have certainly borne the brunt of his most recent comments. Cameron is also on record as arguing that Roman Catholics are not Christians, and he has had some pretty nasty and ignorant things to say about my Church. So when OGCMA chooses someone like that as a headline speaker for an important event, it makes me feel that we are not as far removed as I thought we were from the days when neither the gay members of our community, nor Catholics like myself, would have been allowed to purchase homes in the Grove. OGCMA has every Constitutional right to chose speakers that make people feel unwelcome, but don’t expect the rest of us to bear it in silence.
@ OGnME
“KC’s views do lead to bullying and violence to our LGBT friends, neighbors and to millions of teens across this country.”
So, what you are saying is that MY beliefs lead to bullying. I resent that. It’s called personal responsibility and parental guidance that prevents bullying; not government laws and a restriction of free speech. My children are not bullies.
What’s next, I can express my love for ice cream because someone’s lack of personal responsibility leads them becoming obese?
There is no difference and once you cross the line of the masses restricting free speech, you head down that slippery slope very fast and equivocate your way to restricting a heck of a lot more things. And thus dies Freedom at the feet of tyranny.
@ddc
You have nailed it, other than to add that if we can’t invite speakers, we had better cancel free speech itself. Again, we rightfully so must allow the other side their beliefs, but it’s not ok for our side to have our own set of convictions and beliefs. No one is saying the other side isn’t allowed to practice their beliefs. We are just expressing our beliefs that it is something that we don’t buy into.
Stating one’s beliefs is in no way hatefull. The bible says what it says, you either believe it, agree with it, or you don’t. You can have differing beliefs and not be filled with hate. The hate isn’t coming from the christian community, it’s coming from the other side. Kirk Cameron is allowed to believe what he believes and should not be condemned for what he believes.
If we can’t invite speakers to the auditorium who believe what the bible says, we’d better cancel the rest of the Sunday morning speakers.
Lest we forget, the OGCMA has in the past had both the KKK and Nixon speak in the Great Auditorium. Both questionable & dubious choices. In recollection one wonders how they could have allowed/condoned this. Let us not wait for history to show us the mistake of this matter. OGCMA should rectify it’s bad choice now. I suggest as an alternative a gay/gay friendly speaker. Plenty out there. Might heal some wounds and also open some minds & hearts.
The CMA has a gambling problem. Protests? Ruined experience for the audience? National coverage of his statements? They may get a carnival coming to town. So the risk is that instead of a positive spiritual event, they may get a heated, disheartening, divisive, distracting political circus. I’m not complaining. I love the circus.
So many events seem positive and enriching at the Great Auditorium. It is a shame the CMA seems to have these lapses in judgment, and what looks to me like a lapse in maturity.
My answer regarding Kirk Cameron is: No, he should not be disinvited. As far as I know, the Camp Meeting has the right to invite whomever they choose to speak. There will always be people who disagree no matter who is on any stage, anywhere in the world, but that is what makes life interesting and diverse. Let’s remember we still (usually) enjoy freedom of speech in this country. Thank you for the opportunity to vote.
Just to be clear, the Constitution protects the right of speech free from the interference of the government, not from private parties. That is why the CMA may invite Kirk Cameron, but refuse to invite Dan Savage, and make both of those decisions based on the content of their speech and their opinions. The CMA likes Kirk Cameron, and for those of us who find his views odious, the answer is: make a sound. Go out and protest when he comes to town if you don’t like him. Make your views known, maybe educate some folks who don’t know.
I have lived in OG my whole life, as have 3 generations before me. I do not always agree with the CMA. That does not mean I plan any protests or public display of disagreement. I accept the gay community and respect all that they have done for OG. I don’t attend the OG United events nor do I judge them. I would never even consider protesting outside of Seagrass when they hold an event. If you do not like the KC event in the Auditorium, don’t go. I do not plan to attend but don’t need to rant and rave about why. Don’t expect everyone to get along if you can’t put your own efforts into that outcome. Tolerance is a two way street that we all need to work on.
KC’s views do lead to bullying and violence to our LGBT friends, neighbors and to millions of teens across this country. Sadly, we have seen that hateful speech has resulted in horrific violence. Do we really want to promote a speaker who’s views do not teach love and respect for all? Let’s send a message to the country that OG IS a town who walks its talk!
Banning a speaker because of their convictions is one step closer to tyranny of the masses. Remember, the sword can cut both ways.
I do NOT agree with him, but he has a right to his views and last I looked, has a right to speak about them.
If we are a tolerant community, then Mr. Cameron should speak in the Great Auditorium. Those who want to hear or agree with his views will attend, those who do not will or should schedule an enjoyable evening for themselves.
I don’t know; this is a tough one. First the pavilion controversy. Then a homophobe speaker. Doesn’t seem to give a positive message of what our community is about. I am a firm believer in free speech but where is the line drawn? Would we tolerate racist rhetoric (black? white?)? How about an anti-Semite? Guess I will join the protesters that night and exercise MY right to free speech.
Last I heard, the Constitution still grants freedom of speech in this country, whether we agree with the speaker or not. Unless he advocates harm to anyone (especially children or animals, which are both illegal), he has the right to express his views. And we have the right to protest those views, if we so choose.
Why is any specific speaker at the Great Auditorium a referendum on the tolerance of our community? The Great Auditorium is a non-public insitution. Surely folks don’t think they get to vote on whether they like every act that comes across the stage in the Great Auditorium????
I don’t agree with KC, but then again, I don’t like a lot of people. Doesn’t mean I try to forcce my views on others.
ditto! we like a community tolerant of everyone.
yes dis invite kirk