By Charles Layton
The planned appearance of a controversial anti-gay celebrity in Ocean Grove is starting to make news.
Today’s Asbury Park Press contains a story about the dispute.
In March of this year, the former child actor Kirk Cameron, an evangelical Christian, drew protests from the gay community for calling homosexuality “unnatural” and “destructive to so many of the foundations of civilization.” The comments were in a nationally-televised interview on CNN.
Cameron is scheduled for two speaking engagements at the Great Auditorium this July, and the gay rights organization Ocean Grove United has asked the Camp Meeting Association to disinvite him.
“If someone had made a racist or anti-Semitic remark, would you want to be sponsoring that individual?” Harriet Bernstein, co-chair of OGU, told the APP.
Neptune Mayor Randy Bishop was quoted as saying he would be disappointed if Cameron brought his “hate speech” to Ocean Grove. “I’m sorry that he’s going to be here,” Bishop said. “Bringing a lot of emphasis to this just helps [Cameron] sell his books.”
Dale Whilden, president of the Camp Meeting, said the association’s trustees plan to meet this month to vote on whether they still want Cameron as a featured speaker. “We want to do our best to make a decision that will be respectful to all the people in the community,” Whilden told the APP.
He said Camp Meeting officials had met with opponents of Cameron’s visit and that they also plan to meet, in private, with those who support his visit before taking a vote.
Cameron is best known for his role on the 1980s television sitcom Growing Pains. He has also appeared in movies. He currently participates in a ministry that teaches creationism, Christian family values and other tenets of Christian fundamentalism.
Emails have been flying in Ocean Grove in recent weeks regarding Cameron’s appearance here, letters are being written by people on both sides of the issue, and some within the gay community have advocated a protest at the Great Auditorium if Cameron appears.
As things now stand, Cameron is scheduled to speak on Friday, July 27, on the topic “Love Worth Fighting For,” billed as a “marriage event.” He is scheduled to speak a second time on Sunday morning, July 29, marking the opening of “Camp Meeting Week.”
I think we all agree that tolerance for everyone’s opinions is the gold standard. It seems to me the only intolerant comments here are coming from the GLBT community. For a town with such a strong religious heritage, OG has proved itself to be extremely tolerant of differing lifestyles. There are plenty of other shore towns you can inhabit if you have issues with the CMA. I agree totally with Devo and Just a minute!
Waterseller: im the events held by the CMA are attended by everyone, but they only have to please their parishioners.
Are there gay residents who are against Cameron’s appearance that were unaware of the Methodist Church ‘s stance on homosexuality?
Justaminute! said it all perfectly, I could not agree more. Can we please just put this to rest and start a new topic? Stay home on 7/27 and do something that makes you happy. That is what I plan to do!
…..who said anything about Jewish lesbians? You had me till there. Seems most of the townies need a drink or 3.
Regarding protesting, there is a difference between respectfully disagreeing w/someones lifestyle.. as I assume this Anne Graham Lotz did, backing the NC marriage amendment, and going on CNN or whatever media outlet and saying how “unnatural” and “destructive to so many foundations of civilization”… really? Maybe Kirk is just trying to stay semi-relevant, but if you want to preach about marriage, how about the divorce rate or the fact that there is constant adultery going on in this world, or shows on TV like “sister wives” glorifying a lifestyle where a man can have multiple wives/kids? That seems a little more destructive than John and Bob across the street, no?
I was not offended by the large rainbow flag on Johnny Mac’s during Pride. I am not offended by the gold equal signs on the blue flags that fly around Ocean Grove. I am not offended by the large cross dressers holding hands and kissing, who inhabit the board walk on a sunny day when I am walking with my small children, and I try to help them understand that “family now comes in all different forms.” However, I am offended whenever someone else takes offense at what another person believes in or has a right to hear should they wish to go. I live in the Grove. I love my gay friends and have many. I attend St. Paul’s, even though I am Catholic, and I keep to the message that “Jesus is Lord and He is my Savior.” Those parts of the message that I disagree with, I have a private conversation with God. Sometimes, I wish you all would do the same.
Further, I am getting tired of Jewish lesbians likening the spoken word of a different religious belief to anti-semitism. This is not Nazi Germany. This is Ocean Grove. I’m sorry your feelings were hurt by Kurt’s invitation. However, I am sure that if you ask anyone in the Orthodox Jewish Community, homosexuality would be frowned upon quite severely as well. Coming from your own culture, is that anti-semitism? As gay men and women, you did not “choose” this lifestyle, it was thrust upon you. Look at it this way … God never gives you more than you can carry. I hope those that enjoy Mr. Cameron have a lovely time listening to him. Me, I’ll be sitting on my porch with a couple of gay friends, a nice bottle of wine and some cheese, discussing the fact that the democratic senate in NJ keeps blocking the Republican governor on a majority of issues…. oh yeah, that’s right, same theme as here, just different names….but its called POLITICS. Maybe I’ll just hang my flag, you know, red, white and blue. That’s one we can all still understand. I think.
Anne Graham Lotz is preaching in July. She was a backer of the NC marriage amendment. Why not protest her too? (She was so boring last year, no clue why they brought her back…)
As a lesbian, I could care less if so and so … or former child star Mike freakin Seaver … disapproves of my lifestyle … that I didn’t choose by the way. But when it comes to living in a community that’s so open to so many different kinds of people and eclectic, that makes you feel so welcome … it’s kind of a kick in the pants. “Hey gay friends/neighbors/business owners … we like you, we’ll take your money, you can even rent and buy homes … but we don’t approve of your “lifestyle.” Enter Kirk Cameron. I just wish people would put religion aside for a second and just look at basic human respect and rights. Everyone comes into this world the same way, and everyone dies the same way. Religion is too often used as a crutch for intolerance. I don’t plan to protest, I wouldn’t wanna ruin anyone’s good time. Plus I probably have better things to do. But it’s offensive and makes me think twice about renewing my lease in the town I love.
The GA and CMA are not public insitutions. If you don’t agree with a speaker or event at the GA, please don’t attend and respect that there are others who hold different perspectives than your own. No one complained about the Gay Pride parade in AP, yet I bet that there are many who do not support the movement. Let’s all respect each others’ right to think our own thoughts and hold our own views.
Bullets, the CMA has events for everyone, not just their members. Check out their website and be more informed. Come around the Auditorium on a Saturday night sometime and see what I mean. Most of the thousands of people there are from out of town.
Except the CMA doesn’t need to schedule events for everyone, just their parishioners.
I would like to see the speaker cancelled, and I would like the CMA to still be charged for the contract. Maybe they will think twice next time about programs that suit ALL people, not just members of their own church.
While discussing this issue with several friends a few other points can be raised concerning this very poor choice for Founder’s Day and the kickoff of the CMA week. Putting aside Mr Cameron’s message, views and statements (very hard for a former hippie like me) but by making it a Marriage Event the CMA is excluding several other groups; youths, singles, the divorced, the widowed, etc. If exclusion was the aim, they hit a bullseye.
I had thought to let this topic rest, but it would be wrong to let posts by freshjerseypeach and Oldtimer go unaddressed.
Two of the tactics used by defenders of the CMA in this controversy are 1.) misrepresenting the issue, 2.) basing arguments on demonstratably false assumptions.
fjp:
Founding a town of streets and lots 150 years ago, does not mean a religious group may overbear its future population ad infinitum.
You set up a false dichotomy by comparing an exclusively Christian community with an exclusively gay community: Firstly, because there are many people who are both gay and Christian. Secondly, and more important, is that Christianity is a religious faith, a matter of opinion (though those indoctrinated from infancy have little choice), whereas homosexuality is a physical condition that onsets in early childhood (people observed that I was “different” when I was 4 years old). You cannot compare those who challenge one’s opinions with those who challenge one’s physical body. (That is like condemning red hair, or big noses.) Indeed, a democracy won’t work if citizens cannot challenge ideas, but it is poisoned if citizens challenge other citizens’ very existence. Since the proposition you set up amounts to logical fallacy, the conclusions you draw from it are invalid.
“Let’s also take a moment to think:…”
Yes, let’s do just that:
When you claim “being offended” is trumping First Amendment rights (as others have done) you are presenting an argument against a false representation of the issue. Nobody is arguing against the right to speak anyone’s opinion. This controversy is not about the right to free speech. No one argues against that.
This controversy is about malicious intent: the CMA’s choice, instead of all the dozens of other speakers available to them, to aggrandize and promote Kirk Cameron’s hate-speech (which is less accurately defined as “opinion” than as “verbal assault”).
Mr. Cameron’s public remarks are made with the unmistakable intention to dehumanize, direct malice toward and harm citizens who have the same right to “life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness” that he and you have.
Oldtimer:
“…the CMA’s views are not the minority in this town.”
Oh yeah? Let’s take a poll (of everyone in OG, not just your personal associates).
RE: Ocean Grove Secularist:
“I’d like to address the following comment to The Maxster, who posted the phrase “who was here first” in a comment to Michael Grover. Would you please clarify what this means? I’m thinking you’re thinking to “back in the day,” when Ocean Grove was a closed community.”
Sorry, been away from the computer for a couple of days, just saw your question.
To be honest, Nohobe kind of sums up my feelings in a different way:
NoHobe
“The OGCMA owes you nothing. You owe them only yearly ground rent if a lessee.”
So, what I am saying is CMA owns the property, they have been here as a religious community for “eons” so to speak and that was the basis of the creation of the organization…
People can live where ever they want, no matter what color, sex; creed or lifestyle. And people willingly come to live in the Grove for whatever reason.
But to ignore the religious underpinnings of the community and the people that run the CMA is wrong. So, they can call the speakers they want to.
Perhaps I phrased it in a way I didn’t mean to. Maybe I was trying hard not to offend the censors (yes, it does happen here) and ended up twisting my words anyway. Hey, I’m only human.
“” Fresh Jersey Peach” & “We Need To Work Together” above also has a good read on the situation and pretty much “nails it.”
@Anonymous; STP; homophobia.
Those who are offended choose to be offended. The OGCMA owes you nothing. You owe them only yearly ground rent if a lessee.
I just wish that the CMA, in addition to relishing it’s rights and liberties as a private organization, would pay more attention to its responsibilities. It is as though they have understood private property law to mean that they have no responsibilities to the people who live on that property.
Respect, kindness, thoughtfulness, restraint, compassion are also solid religious values. And in this case, they should have had a greater sway with the CMA decision on speakers, than the love of private property and the liberty it affords.
In the future, I also would like to see gratitude from the CMA toward all those who have purchased and rented property, and then improved those properties, to the great benefit of the standing and reputation of Ocean Grove. It would be the right thing to do. It would also shut the door to winds of controversy and negativity that breeze through the gates along with divisive actions that add very little to the spiritual conversation or the positive energy necessary to sustain our healthy town.
Enough already with This Kirk C. thing. New topic please.
Last time I checked, the CMA runs the GA and can choose whomever they want. If someone doesn’t like the speaker (like me), then don’t go. I don’t like half of the acts/speakers at the GA, but I don’t expect the world to revolve around my beliefs/perceptions/desires. The naysayers must recognize that the CMA’s views are not in the minority in this town.
Move on folks, there’s nothing to see here.
I paraphrase and edit slightly a past post of mine:
Personally, I find the intolerance and entrenched viewpoints expressed here by those on BOTH sides of this issue appalling. Why can’t we all stop with the “holier than thou” arguments and accept the fact that people have very different, and equally deeply held, beliefs? Is the Camp Meeting summer roster really any more offensive to some people than a bunch of equal signs and rainbow flags are to other people?
People’s intolerance of the CMA is just as bad as the CMA’s intolerance of other things. There is no way that you didn’t know, as you moved into town, that the CMA was an integral part of the history and current reality of Ocean Grove. Camp Meeting events are NOT general public events. When all is said and done, their programming is their decision, not yours. If you don’t like it, don’t attend (even though they do invite you 🙂 ).
Shall we scrutinize your summer guest list? I’m sure that you will be inviting someone over for one of your private events that I will find offensive in one way or another.
I do not Skrillex, so I did not go to Bamboozle. But I do not automatically think that everyone who attended his concert is a horrible person. Perhaps some went to see what he had to present so they could make their own decision.
Kirk Cameron was here last year and the world didn’t end. I chose not to go (I vehemently disagree with most of what he stands for). You can choose not to go as well. Everyone in this country has a right to their own belief system, religious or otherwise.
It has taken the town of Ocean Grove years to recover from the Ocean Grove Pavilion controversy.
(It’s still not completely healed.) Why would the Camp Meeting jeopardize going through this again? Is one speaker worth this? If I were the Camp Meeting, I would chalk up the loss and cancel the service for the good of the town.
Let us continue the healing process from the last OGCMA/gay controversy. Remember, the gay community is a very important part of this community(volunteerism, members of important community organizations, etc.).
Cancel this speaker for the good of community and unite the town. I hope and pray that the Camp Meeting Association will do the right thing for the town of Ocean Grove.
I just have to say…the CMA was here first and created Ocean Grove for a religious retreat. When I purchased my home in 1981 I knew what I was getting into as far as the Camp Meetings do’s and don’ts and if I didn’t like it then I would of not purchased in town.
Today it seems come into town and let’s change it to our standards.
I respect the gay and lesbians, to each there own but every time the CMA does something that is not liked we have to hear all this nonsense.
I don’t think these groups can go the churches, temples ect. and change their way and I don’t like these people coming into town and protesting everything that they feel is intrusive.
I’m all for making Ocean Grove a well rounded community for all, but the focus should be on stopping of condo’s, create parking through construction, stop over building and vote the right people in office that want to make the Grove a better place and control taxes, these things are out of control iF you noticed.
No one said anything about violence Nancy- in reading all of the posts here (love the opportunity to have this discussion btw), it is clear we all love our community, one made up of many types of people. Why would the CMA risk causing such dis-ease. It is clear that there is one simple solution. Cancel Kirk Cameron’s appearance and find a speaker who’s message can be delivered without offending a substantial part of this lovely community.
If this speech was being held at the Lake Auditorium (that’s at the Neptune High School) would any of you naysayers care? Do the majority of Ocean Grovers even acknowledge being part of Neptune?
Does anyone serioudly believe that the CMA is going to cancel KC at this late date and run the risk of disenfranchsing the faithful (i.e.,the attendees at this Camp Meeting Week launch event)?
I’d like to address the following comment to The Maxster, who posted the phrase “who was here first” in a comment to Michael Grover. Would you please clarify what this means? I’m thinking you’re thinking to “back in the day,” when Ocean Grove was a closed community.
.
Can’t we all just get along!
Ugh. Those Left Behind books are terrible. I might protest how poorly written they are.
Ms. McManus,
With all due respect:
Saying that people must take responsibility for the consequences of their actions is not hate speech. No one, in any way what-so-ever has suggested violence in connection with this event–no one except you. Charging someone with intolerance of intolerance is oxymoronic (figure of speech that contains a self-contradition). Enough nonsense, indeed.
I do live by the standard I hold others to. How about you?
hate speech cannot be tolerated…ever
I’m done
Yes, Cameron spoke last year at the end of the season, not the “Main Event” like this year, and yes there were protesters, silent, small and respectful, but they were there! There were also groups espousing exclusive Christian-only communities, the Apocalypse (radio broadcasts and recordings playing away) and his people hawking Left Behind videos and books right at the main side entrance. It’s not just his narrow anti-gay views that gives me and others pause, it’s the total package! You can’t dismiss what he said and espoused in the past simply because you like his ‘focused’ message of today.
The only bullying and hate speech I am seeing here is that which has been directed at Mr. Cameron and the CMA. Silence, or else. And if there is any violence related to his visit, will those who say they will not tolerate his message be to blame?
Enough nonsense. Live by the standard you hold others to.
I’m done.
stephengoldfinger, WLS, et al.:
When you defend the CMA by declaring that everyone has a right to his opinion, and hate speech is protected by the First Amendment, you are employing the classic “straw man tactic.” (“A straw man tactic relies on constructing an argument against an inaccurate representation of the original proposition.”)
This controversy is not about having an opinion, or the right to speak it. This controversy is about which opinion the CMA chooses to provide with a grand platform at the center of our community, and actively promote.
Nancy McManus: You might want to consider the well-documented consequences of anti-gay hate speech: bullying, beatings, homicide and suicide, especially involving children who cannot defend themselves. The perpetrators are directly influenced and motivated by people like Kirk Cameron. That is why NJ has had to institute anti-bullying and hate-crime laws. By actively promoting the root cause of these crimes, the CMA cannot escape partial responsibility for them.
I haven’t heard any homophobic rants. Unless a rant is anyone who disagrees with your position.
Tolerance.
Homophobic rants are now to be tolerated in the name of harmony…I don’t think so…
Ogrover – Be that as it may (Cameron’s statements), but did you even notice when he spoke at the Aud last year? Yes, he spoke at the Aud last year. He was invited back after that engagement. The current blow up with him is just that, current, as in relatively new.
As for offending one’s neighbors, I will say this makes for a slightly uncomfortable situation. It’s kinda like inviting your ranting racist uncle to come over when you have black neighbors. You’re not sure if things will go fine, be slightly uncomfortable, or if there will be a screaming match in the middle of the street – what actually happens will depend on how everyone is feeling on that particular day. The difference here being that it’s not two private citizens, it’s a church that’s found itself located amidst one of the largest LGBT populations in the state. Oh, and Cameron tends to draw a very fervent following.
What exactly are the damages to be incurred by our gay friends and neighbors in OG if Kirk Cameron gives a speech to a private group in the GA? The answer is none, unless you consider hurt feelings to be a significant problem.
If the OGU really wants to promote harmony in OG, they should forget about making a fuss over this issue. What happened to the “sticks and stones” concept we teach our kids?
I believe that OGU is just looking for an excuse to stir the pot of the gay political agenda at the expense of harmony in the Grove. Why not take that activism elsewhere, like outside the governor’s office?
Yes, the CMA can bring in anyone they want to speak, but …
Are they prepared for the inevitable protests?
Are they prepared for the inevitable ‘outside’ organizations that will line up to join in those protests?
Are they prepared for the inevitable press and TV coverage, both local AND national? (We already have the mayor weighing in, so the press is already involved.)
This event has the potential to make the Cross, Sign and Pavillion controversies seem like minor annoyances.
OGnMe, Like Kirk Cameron, I believe in every word of Scripture. Am I not welcome in “your town?”
Sal is right. Seems to be a lot of “tolerate ME, but don’t make me tolerate you.”
@Waterseller & @ Sal
Excellent points. I would bet that those in attendance are those that wish to hear what Kirk has to say. What happened to tolerance?
@ Micheal Grover – re: “I think the CMA needs to find a way to promote its brand of evangelical religion without offending their neighbors.”
That is rich, my friend. Just who was here first? Remember, those neighbors need to act neighborly to the people who own the property known as The Great Auditorium.
Isn’t removing Cameron from the program exercising the same kind of discrimination Kirk is espousing?
Stephen, Are you saying the Kirk Cameron’s words are hate speech, or that, since hate speech is protected, Kirk’s words are protected, also?
….and protest we will- god loves ALL his children not just the the ones KC and the CMA chose. This man is not welcomed in my town. The media is going to love this one.
To all those opposing Kirk speaking at the Auditorium. No one is forcing you to attend the event and listen. If you don’t want to hear what he has to say, stay home. This reminds me of an email I received recently. It said, if a conservative doesn’t like what a person is saying on the radio, they change the station. If a liberal doesn’t like it they try to have the show removed. Same thing here.
Yes, protest is a marvelous and effective tool! Let Kirk have his say and let all those opposed have theirs. Touché.
And while hate speech is protected by the first amendment, so is protesting. Let the games begin. ..
@Stephen: Excellent. Well said. Intelligent. Worldly. Level headed. Eye opening. Fair. Smart.
Even hate speech is protected by the first amendment. While Cameron’s ideas may be repulsive to many, and justifiably so, the CMA has a right to allow him to speak without being excoriated for it. Oppression in favor of what many perceive as the “good” or “the right side” of an argument is just as dangerous as oppression in the name of the “bad” or what many might consider the “wrong side of the argument.” Suppress the voices of the Camerons of this world and not only do they grow stronger by raising the oriflamme of victimization, but the next time it may be your voice that people are trying to suppress.
There are many of us that believe every word, from Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning, God …” to the invitation and warning in the epilogue of Revelation (Chapter 22). Not to justify or condemn any behavior, but to honor God. We don’t get to pick and choose.
There seems to be a bit of misunderstanding of Bible believing Christians. I would suggest taking any of the wonderful Bible studies that the CMA offers during the summer. St. Paul’s has some great studies, too, during the “off season.”
it never ceases to amaze me how some people will use Jesus’ name to justify their own intolerance …it’s sad…really really sad
Bullets – maybe they are catering to their customers. But what about a little ethical guidance? Isn’t that part of a church’s responsibility too?
Historically, there is virtually no manner of human behavior that has not been justified by quoting some passage of the Bible. From slavery, bigotry, and homicidal war-mongering, to loving kindness and forgiveness, or anything else, for that matter. You want it, and you can find it there somewhere. A biblical scholar is only someone who knows where to find what he wants it to say.
Regarding homosexuality, Kirk Cameron has said, “I think that it’s unnatural, I think that it’s detrimental and ultimately destructive to so many of the foundations of civilization.” These comments go beyond opposing gay marriage – they attack a significant portion of our community as abnormal and “destructive.” Is this the CMA position too? And do they want to promote these views, and why? I believe the CMA is well within its rights to refuse to perform gay civil unions at its facilities. But I do not believe that they should also offend so many of the people who live here, and potentially set up a media event that defines Ocean Grove as a symbol of intolerance. We are neighbors sharing this small square mile, and this invitation is just plain not very neighborly. And I agree with Harriet Bernstein. It’s no different than headlining with a racist or anti-Semite.
I think the CMA needs to find a way to promote its brand of evangelical religion without offending their neighbors.
Hobe, I said Jesus did love everyone, but His message is clear; following Him and His Word will not be popular or easy. “Narrow is the road …”
Grovah: Why are you surprised? Did the Methodist Church change their stance on gay marriage? Did the CMA? They cater to their customers, the tenters, the church groups who populate Grove Hall year round, those on retreats… These people like Cameron’s general message and that is why he is coming. Despite the influx of homosexual residents, Ocean Grove is still a religious town.
Apparently tolerance is only acceptable if you are being asked to tolerate the words I agree with, huh?
Wow, Nancy. Did you ever study the context for the statements attributed to Jesus. I find it scary that you would use them to turn Jesus into a negative firebrand. This cherry-picking of Biblical verses is what people like Kurt Cameron are good at when they want to demonize those they don’t like.
His beliefs and statements are well documented long before CNN. That particular interview just exposed him to a much wider national audience.
OGrover, I do agree. Not because he’s “controversial,” but I kind of wish it was a Preacher, like Charles Stanley or David Jeremiah.
His comments were made when he honestly answered a question during an interview that wasn’t supposed to be about that at all. No shock that he was honest; should he have lied?
Billie Jean, Jesus loved all, but didn’t “soften” His message. “I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.” and ” For I have come to turn “‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law — a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.” And His “words to the Pharisees (“Your father is the devil,” for one) were *not* politically correct.
I just don’t understand the blatant disrespect to the gay homeowners, renters, business owners in OG that the CMA is allowing. They have no problem watching us pay taxes, spend money, bathe on the beach in “their” town, but bringing in someone like Kirk Cameron is a slap in the face to certain residents. You don’t have to accept our (unchosen) lifestyle but respect across the board sounds pretty fair.
I’m sure the CMA had him booked before he made those comments.
And I’m sorry Nancy, I can’t disagree with you more. Jesus preached the Bible, and his overwhelming main message was “Love one another as I have loved you.” There wasn’t a footnote discluding anyone.
He’s spoken here before, but to have him ‘kicking off’ Camp Meeting Week, the biggest event of the season, leaves me vitually dumbfounded! One truly wonders what the CMA was thinking to bring such a controversial speaker in the first place. It’s just so very insensitive!
I’ve heard him speak several times, on several different topics. He’s great, and Love Worth Fighting For sounds good, too. I just hope those who preach tolerance mean tolerance of everyone.
This should be no more controversial than any other Bible adherent preacher who comes to the Great Auditorium. Someone who preaches the Gospel will either offend, convict or convert.
Can’t wait to see how the “Camp Meeting Association” deals with this one, especially after their very public treatment of the gay issue in the past.