Historical Society of Ocean Grove: July 4 parade. Paul Goldfinger photo

 

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Posted in Blogfinger Poll | Tagged Blogfinger Poll: Are you confident regarding OG historic heritage | 19 Comments

19 Responses

1. on January 30, 2012 at 9:26 am Anonymous four

   How can anyone vote yes, when we see houses being torn down, the flare being violated, and many houses in serious need of renovation? This town is on the edge of a knife and it is really uncertain which way it will fall.

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2. on January 30, 2012 at 12:15 pm Anonymous six

   The Township Committee and the Zoning Board don’t seem to be interested in historic preservation at all at this point. There’s not much the HPC can do without their support.

   It’s actually sad to see that so many of the people participating in this poll are expressing a lack of confidence in the Neptune government’s ability/desire to protect this historic district.

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3. on January 30, 2012 at 12:27 pm Progress

   Certainly, the historic social/religious heritage is not being sustained.

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4. on January 30, 2012 at 5:36 pm Ogrover

   Well, hard to have confidence when the flare is encroached on regularly, height and density guidelines bypassed, monumental parking issues, deteriorated key structures that take drawn-out, expensive legal procedures to remedy, HPC recommendations ignored, … all raise concerns.

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5. on January 30, 2012 at 6:32 pm Anonymous eight

   Well….and what are OG residents going to do about it?

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6. on January 31, 2012 at 6:55 am Mary Beth Jahn

   I resent that comment about the Township Commmittee, “Anonymous six.”

   This Committee has spent more money prosecuting the owners of derelict buildings – many of them key or supporting structures – than any Committee before us. We have had to deal with buildings that were left to rot for a decade or more, trying to punish the owners in court (even though the NJ land use statutes are extremely lax as to the sentences allowed for derelict homeowners, and please, spare me the BS about demolition by neglect, that option is subject to the same NJ land use use statutes as property maintenance) and we are still prosecuting.

   The Zoning Board of Adjustment is an autonomous entity over which the Township Committee has no control. If the ZBA approves a height variance or allows front steps in the flare, the Committee cannot do anything about it.

   The Grove received its designation based mainly on its street layout and the Great Auditorium. Yes, the key and supporting homes are important, too, as is the flare, but the historic designation won’t be lost over some hedges in the flare.

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7. on January 31, 2012 at 8:55 am Sal

   Here we go AGAIN! Mary Beth Jahn is telling a OG residents that their opinions are BS. How dare she! If someone has an opinion about demolition by neglect that’s their business. Declaring them BS is just wrong.

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8. on January 31, 2012 at 9:19 am Charles Layton

   It isn’t strictly true that the Township Committee has no control over the Zoning Board. The Committee members choose the people who serve on that board. They also appoint the board’s attorney and its technical advisers. And so, long term, the Committee’s appointive power shapes the philosophy and priorities of that board. If you don’t like the Zoning Board’s behavior, the Township Committee is exactly where you should take your complaints.

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9. on January 31, 2012 at 9:38 am Anonymous six

   Mary Beth, The major point is that about half of those polled don’t have confidence that the historic heritage of Ocean Grove will be preserved. And the bottom line is that the Township Committee is the group with all of the power to actually ensure its preservation.

   Yes, Neptune has finally started going after derelict houses, however that only occurred after citizens of Ocean Grove raised a ruckus. And, as I recall, you yourself stated (on this very blog) that 91 Cookman simply had to be torn down, which we see now was simply not the case.

   Are we supposed to be happy that Mayor Bishop told the Home Owners Assoc. this past weekend that he was going to put aside even more money to tear down historic buildings (rather than work to preserve them)?

   While the Township Committee may not have any control over how the Zoning Board votes, you five do have total control over who sits on that Board. How do you make sure that all of their members are aware of Neptune Ordinance, including ordinance pertaining to the Historic District?

   While you yourself may very well be interested in preservation (which I personally believe you to be), there are four other members of your Township Committee and you ultimately act as one.

   PS: It’s not just “hedges” in the flare — people are more concerned about about things like the new second-story *porch* (on a key structure, no less) just approved in the flare by the Zoning Board.

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10. on January 31, 2012 at 10:58 am Anonymous eight

    Accepting that the Twp Committee and the Zoning Board (and let’s throw in thw Planning Bd.) and the HPC all seem to be ineffective in protecting the FLARE from incursions, what is left? Much has been said about NJ property owners rights being sacrosanct therefore why is not the OWNER, the CMA,of the property that is being violated allowing these incursions? Each party requesting a variance to do so MUST have permission (testimony) from the CAMP MEETING ASSOCIATION to proceed.

    Yes, the CMA holds the trump card. No permission from the CMA is the obvious solution. Interesting, eh!

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11. on January 31, 2012 at 3:05 pm Mary Beth Jahn

    You know who I am, Sal? I’m the chick that allocates the money and resources to preservation in Ocean Grove. I’m the one that sends Bill Doolittle out and works with Gene Anthony to prosecute the owners of homes that are neglected and rotting.

    You know what else, Sal? You may have missed this in the past five years or so, but I’m not a frickin’ doormat. If I think something’s BS, I’ll say so.

    I have no idea what Randy said at the OGHA meeting, but I know there are only two buildings in town that are in peril of demolition at this moment, and they’re the Parkview and 24 McClintock.

    None of us knows how someone is going to vote when they’re on a board. We are not allowed to even litmus-test candidates, especially for Zoning, because that can be seen as exerting undue influence. When I sat on the Planning Board, I would go into a meeting thinking one thing and after listening to the testimony and other facts, sometimes my vote would change. Why? Because I had the entire picture at the hearing, under sworn testimony.

    So do I get to go back to working on problem properties in the Grove now? I’d really appreciate it, and I think most OG residents would, too.

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12. on January 31, 2012 at 3:57 pm Kathy Arlt

    Here are a few reasons why I’m skeptical that Neptune Township really isn’t that interested in historic preservation in Ocean Grove:

    1. Ignoring the request made by the HPC a year ago to prosecute owners of derelict structures under the demolition by neglect ordinance—(yes, I am going to go there)—without even informing the HPC of its decision.
    2. Relying solely on citizen complaints to ensure that property maintenance standards are upheld.
    3. Failure to revise the supposedly unusable demolition by neglect ordinance to make it effective.
    4. Not using liens to effectuate repairs that would, at least, ensure that buildings are watertight.
    5. Failure to explore other preservation ordinances, such as special property maintenance standards that would only apply to the historic district.

    It is true that a major component of the National Historic District application submitted in 1975 was the “planned community” aspect of Ocean Grove and the religious structures around Auditorium Square. However, the unique Victorian architecture of hotels and private houses is fully itemized and illustrated with photos in the application.

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13. on January 31, 2012 at 7:28 pm Lynn

    Mary Beth- Thank you for bringing up 24 McClintock….the owners were granted extra time by the court to make the necessary repairs that had to wait until warmer months. This winter has been extremely mild, there are no weather related excuses. NOTHING has been done to this house since the last court date. The windows are still not boarded, the raccoons still get in my trash, and more importantly, the property remains an extreme fire hazard! I appreciate your presence on this board and would like to know where this situation stands. My efforts to find out from our former mayor in December were very disappointing, he never got back to me.

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14. on January 31, 2012 at 9:28 pm Old Grove Lady

    Mary Beth,
    Whether someone thinks you shouldn’t shoot from the hip or not (@Sal) doesn’t matter. What matters is that you take an interest in the public’s views, Bother to look into it, Bother to respond — (much like our Governor — no one is fond of his delivery, but he at least deals with the issues). The rest of the Twp. Committee doesn’t care to use this forum, which would really endear them more to the residents. They choose to stay uninvolved, protected and removed from having a relationship with those that actually put them in office.
    Thank you for your passion.

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15. on February 1, 2012 at 9:33 am OhGee

    I think Anonymous Six is taking what Randy Bishop said (at the OGHOA mtg) out of context. – “Are we supposed to be happy that Mayor Bishop told the Home Owners Assoc. this past weekend that he was going to put aside even more money to tear down historic buildings (rather than work to preserve them)?” He was refering to structures, and he used the Sampler Inn as an example, that were considered an extreme hazard, and whose owners repeatedly were taken to court and failed to follow the judge’s orders.

    Randy said Neptune Township has to pay for the demolition, which is very costly. He said that they designated enough money in the 2012 budget to knock down 2 buildings, if needed.

    The owner of the Park View Inn also owned the Sampler Inn. So far he’s used every delay tactic in the book to not comply. He says he is going to restore the Park View Inn, but he also said the same thing about the Sampler. I think it is prudent of the township committee to set aside money to demolish the Park View Inn. It is in poor condition and a HUGE fire hazard. If Mr. Koplitz doesn’t meet the judge’s latest orders, it should be demolished. Seaview Ave residents will be relieved when that dangerous monstrosity is torn down. I lived on Seaview Ave a few doors down from the Park View. Trust me, the entire neighborhood lives in fear of that building.

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16. on February 2, 2012 at 9:45 pm Monica Kowalski, Esq.

    FYI…any board attorney is appointed by the board chairperson and appointment review committee, not the Township committee. The positions are advertised and applied for based on Requests for Proposals or Requests for Qualifications.

    This is my fifth year of appointment and my 21st year of practice. My practice has been almost exclusively in real estate, land use, environmental law and civil litigation and defense. When I first applied for the position and was appointed, I knew no one in the town, having just moved in three weeks prior, but having owned our property for 3 years prior to that. So, it is very disheartening to read all of your negative comments. I have litigated decisions for the Z. Board up through the Supreme Court of NJ, and the decisions have never been overturned. Because they have been good decisions, based on land use law and our MLUL.

    You, individually or collectively, may not like them and, quite frankly, provide mostly biased opinions about the flare and ordinances and variances granted without reviewing the applications, listening to the testimony or even understanding your own ordinances or the basis for the approvals. That’s ok. You are entitled to your opinion and I respect you for it. I may even secretly agree with you, but you will never know because I cannot express an opinion. Part of my job is to play devil’s advocate and make sure the Board sees both sides of the coin.

    However, I don’t see most of you in the audience consistently, in fact, NO ONE is there consistently, except maybe Joe Krimko. Are all the decisions correct? Probably not. Are all the decisions wrong? Definitely not. But the lack of tolerance and compassion and understanding for the people who sit and listen to these applications and make very difficult decisions on a volunteer basis is really sad.

    Ocean Grove will not collapse because one person was granted a vertical 9 inch encroachment which existed on the 2 lower floors for 100 years. Stairs are allowed to encroach in the flare and if you really want to get picky, start pulling out your shrubs and flowers in the grass strip, get rid of your water elements, they breed mosquitoes, take out the fences in the flare and get rid of all the summer patio furniture that’s placed there that violate the ordinances. Want me to continue on all the violations that encroach or decrease the quality of life in the Grove? Probably not. I’m going back into my glass house now. Who is going to pick up the first rock and throw it? Just curious.

    Editor’s note: Ms. Kowalski is the attorney for the Neptune Township Zoning Board of Adjustment. It should be noted that Blogfinger has many visitors to the site (1,173 just yesterday). The number of people who make comments here represent a tiny percent of the total. Ms. Kowalski is angry about the negative comments,but they represent the views of a relatively small number of vocal citizens. We at Blogfinger will post all sorts of views, positive or negative. It’s human nature, it seems, for negative comments to be more prevalent, but hopefully those who get upset over such comments, and their reaction is understandable, will try to put them into perspective. Paul @Blogfinger

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17. on February 3, 2012 at 9:05 pm Ogrover

    A question or two … Just because a building or structure has been in violation of the flare for 100 years mean that it should remain so? Shouldn’t a remodel or whatever correct that violation instead of compounding or adding to the original violation?

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18. on February 6, 2012 at 8:31 am howard

    When the zoning board lawyer poo-poos encroachment into the flare I get worried. Unless I’m missing something, the zoning board has no real expertise on historic preservation. The HPC does, and according to an earlier article in Blogfinger, they sent a letter for that recent case, which seems to have been completely ignored.

    On top of that, many of us have read and do understand the ordinances. Even the new master plan rewrite points out how weak and inappropriate they are for Ocean Grove by saying that we need a totally separate zoning ordinance for the Historic District.

    Shouldn’t someone at least try to follow the weak preservation ordinance we have until it can be strengthened (and when is that really going to happen??)

    The basic drift that both the township committee and the zoning board don’t support preserving Ocean Grove seems to be pretty much on the mark.

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19. on February 7, 2012 at 2:44 pm Anonymous

    Just my humble opinion but I think that the people who serve us in town government are courageous to get on this blog and try to provide us with perspective in their process. I suggest we remember that these folks do not get paid well enough to tolerate abuse and they certainly seem to want to do the right thing for Ocean Grove and the township. We need to have a tone of respectful engagement with each other and with them else why would anyone selflessly want to run for government? I would hate to see people with more selfish reasons vie for local and state government positions because the satisfaction of serving your fellow citizens is just not enough.

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20. on February 7, 2012 at 5:27 pm Monica Kowalski, Esq.

    Hi Howard. No poo poo intended. My point is the view of the collective Board is what controls, the people who do this every month, even twice a month and hear every application. You may have a different view, but that doesn’t make your view correct. If you sat on the Board and 5 or 7 people disagreed with you, the motion would still pass. The Board tries to have representatives from every section of Neptune for a complete picture. As to the HPC, they are an advisory Board and there have been MANY times in the past when they have been “upheld” on appeal to the zoning board for lack of a better phrase and there have been times when their view has not been the same as the ZBA, based on the requests, testimony, facts and law presented. That is a citizen’s board as well and I do believe only one or two have any type of historical background, the rest is “learned,” just like the Zoning Board. We respect them all but, like you, they all have different opinions. If you would like separate ordinances for Ocean Grove, talk to the Township Committee. You are not the first to suggest it and it is not a bad idea. However, old or new ordinances would still be subject to variance relief for cause. I hope this was helpful. M

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